ZIMBABWE: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE WHITE MAN CEASES TO RULE

How peculiar that one race of people originated spontaneously in three different places. Or did it originate in different places at different times? With all these complications, "Culturalism" must be a difficult philosophy to live one's life by. :wink: Spartacus I am quite sure that English Jews consider themselves to be "of European descent", and would be insulted to learn that they are all Middle Eastern. By now, pretty much every English Jew must be as much a mongrel as are all his fellow countrymen, wouldn't you say? Whether or not they are "really" English, they and their co-religionists in Israel - most certainly have a Western, democratic culture. And that is what counts, as far as I am concerned. But "culturalism" is not at all "difficult to live by". I do believe, most firmly, that our Western civilisation is the best that mankind has yet come up with. It is not perfect, as all will admit. But it is manifestly better than cultural relativists of the left-liberal Weltanshauung would admit. The Israelis and European Jews are part of that Western Civilisation. So are the Americans of all racial stripe, Black, White, or in-between. They are "One of us", to coin a phrase.

Just thought I would take this thread back to an earlier stage, and Africa. Here is some good photographic evidence of what happens when you let a third world people, take over a first world country. Course, you could argue that the "third world people" in question were not probably equipped to take over, given that they had been held back by one of the nastiest, most racist, bigoted political systems of the modern age.

How peculiar that one race of people originated spontaneously in three different places. Or did it originate in different places at different times? With all these complications, "Culturalism" must be a difficult philosophy to live one's life by. :wink: Spartacus I am quite sure that English Jews consider themselves to be "of European descent", and would be insulted to learn that they are all Middle Eastern. . My own family don't seem to have a problem with it. :wink: Spartacus

Just thought I would take this thread back to an earlier stage, and Africa. Here is some good photographic evidence of what happens when you let a third world people, take over a first world country. Course, you could argue that the "third world people" in question were not probably equipped to take over, given that they had been held back by one of the nastiest, most racist, bigoted political systems of the modern age. I see you are trying to make excuses, rather than facing up to the fact that these people are incapable of governing properly. Held back? Just how advanced do you consider they would have been if they had not been 'held back'? I would love to know. Of course I have personally, and safely, walked those streets in the days of apartheid, I remember them well. And it would take a brave man to walk them these days, either that, or someone with a death-wish. Well the boot is on the other foot now; yet the world is silent. Where is Peter Hain when you need him? Have a watch of this? Black Rule - not freedom after all The tide is turning. Finally the world is starting to realise that democracy in South Africa under black rule is resulting in infrastructure collapse and massive loss of life. 40% Unemployment contributing to the highest homicide rate in the world (55/100 000), translates to 20 000 murders per year. Corruption and rape charges against newly elected ANC leader and next president, Jacob Zuma. The 20 000 deaths over 40 years, during the Apartheid-era (15 000 of which during the violent transition 1990 - 1994, and 518 of these as a result of police action) seems to pale in comparison. 50% increase in the super rich. These are mainly black leaders, favoured by affirmative action and BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) which land them top paid director jobs, while their incompetence and lack of planning ability result in collapse of the country's infrastructure, police force and health care system. Watch Here

Of course I have personally, and safely, walked those streets in the days of apartheid, I remember them well. And it would take a brave man to walk them these days, either that, or someone with a death-wish. The 20 000 deaths over 40 years, during the Apartheid-era (15 000 of which during the violent transition 1990 - 1994, and 518 of these as a result of police action) seems to pale in comparison. Police states do tend to keep the streets safe for honest, hard-working, law-abiding people...

I see you are trying to make excuses, rather than facing up to the fact that these people are incapable of governing properly..... So would you prefer that apartheid had been maintained? Are you advocating a return to it?

Are you advocating a return to it? While I deliberate that question, could you supply me with the improvements for all South African's which relinquishing apartheid has brought? As I have to be honest I must have missed them, and I need to balance them against the negative things of which I have seen, in order to reach my decision.

While I deliberate that question, could you supply me with the improvements for all South African's which relinquishing apartheid has brought? As I have to be honest I must have missed them, and I need to balance them against the negative things of which I have seen, in order to reach my decision. I'll take that as a yes then. :twisted:

Answer the question Dog! How have the lives of South Africans improved under the ANC? :wink:

Answer the question Dog! How have the lives of South Africans improved under the ANC? :wink: Well, as far as black South Africans go... Under apartheid they were very much second class citizens (in fact they were stripped of their citizenship altogether), and were denied voting rights, prevented from living in certain areas (or indeed from even entering them). Police brutality was widespread and torture was common. Ok, so things aren't great in SA now. But as Patrick Henry famously said, "Give me freedom or give me death". If I was a black South African I'd certainly rather live in the current, flawed SA than under apartheid. You wouldn't want to see a return to apartheid would you Bear?

I think lifting apartheid was a good thing, but at the same time Mandela the Communist was not exactly the best choice for their president and the results of the direction for that country has shown the reasons. But at the same time, people need the freedom to make bad decision too, or they will never have the freedom to make good decisions.

But at the same time, people need the freedom to make bad decision too, or they will never have the freedom to make good decisions. My sentiments entirely.

"You wouldn't want to see a return to apartheid would you Bear?" No ... of course not. But I doubt if life has improved at all for black South Africans, and while I accept the "Give me Liberty .... " argument, I think it is a crying shame that Africans make such a poor fist of self-government. They really would be better off calling the colonial service back in, IMHO!

They really would be better off calling the colonial service back in, IMHO! But that wouldn't be self determination would it?

They really would be better off calling the colonial service back in, IMHO! But that wouldn't be self determination would it? Why not? The verb used (calling) clearly implies action on the part of South Africans, if they were to determine that they wished to be ruled by British colonial officials that would be self determination. No, I'm not advocating such an act I don't think that we should throw our money and effort at Empires it almost bankrupted us once before...but self determination has too often been conflated with self governance.

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